S2 Ep1: Joe and Yumi on Speaking Up and Taking Action
Joe and Yumi in the recording studio
Welcome to Tacet No More: where we are asking the questions that need to be asked, and saying the things that need to be said about classical music.
This is a landing pad for positive discussions about our belief in the power of music to better humanity, and we will invite voices - from all sectors - to inspire us and the work we do on and off the stage.
In this first episode of the second season, we discuss:
How to harness positive thinking as fuel for changemaking
The orchestra sector’s reckoning with sexual assault in light of the news about Cara Kizer and the New York Philharmonic
The importance of showing up and being a vocal advocate
When speaking out isn’t enough, and how to move toward action
What it means to practice citizenship from positions of privilege within an orchestra
How to prioritize being informed and preparing to be a changemaker, even if you're early in your career
What’s your one good thing?
We’re kicking off every episode with an activity, One Good Thing. This activity will center us as we start our conversations to bring connections and openness while orienting us to the positive.
It’s like shining a flashlight in a dark room so that we pay attention to our experience.
“And so hearing from all of you with your own individual, one good thing. really helps expand the energy that Joe and I are here in the recording studio experiencing together. It helps magnify. It helps spread emotional sunshine. And we would love to do that with all of you.” - Yumi
So, we want to ask you, what is something meaningful? What is something you’re grateful for recently? We’d love for you to share your One Good Thing with us by sharing it on your Instagram Stories. Don’t forget to tag @TacetNoMore and hashtag #OneGoodThingTNM so we can see and share!
ABOUT THE EPISODE:
Spreading the TNM Mission
Joe and Yumi talk about the impact working on the first season had on them and the community, and how exciting it is to be back and approaching the second season without hesitation. They talk about opportunities they’ve had recently to share about their musical craft and the message behind Tacet No More in new forums, including at the Association of Program Directors in Surgery convention. They talk about the superpower musicians have to share about their passion for their work as a way to inspire people in other fields.
Confronting the Status Quo
Joe and Yumi discuss the news about sexual assault in classical music organizations that has been prominent in the field lately, focusing on the story of Cara Kizer and the New York Philharmonic. They highlight that Katherine Needleman’s advocacy has brought to light many similar stories in other institutions.
Joe recently attended a protest in New York in support of Cara, and Joe and Yumi discuss the importance of showing up and making your presence known in support of those whose voices have been silenced. They highlight the various ways you can choose to speak out, and give an example of an open letter Joe wrote to the students of Project 440 in 2020 after the murder of George Floyd.
They also acknowledge that sometimes speaking up isn’t enough, and that words must lead to action. They talk about the ways in which tenured orchestra musicians can work from their places of privilege to enact change.
“But the idea of leaning into that discomfort, trusting that the outcome will alleviate that weight and the heaviness of that discomfort because the outcome means a safe work environment. The outcome means a place where everyone is seen as an equal and has a voice and doesn't feel like they have to be silenced in any way. Which makes for a better culture…would then make for better music making. And a better organization or institution that can be outward facing as an example for the rest of the world. Not just via the notes we play, but how we actually handle our business.” - Joe
A North Star
Joe and Yumi encourage listeners to find inspiration in the beauty and majesty present in life as a musician, and that our goal as an industry should be for all people to be able to practice their excellence in safe spaces. They encourage musicians to think about how they practice citizenship in their institutions to help make these safe spaces possible. This includes educating yourself and accessing resources from places like League of American Orchestras and the American Federation of Musicians, even early in your career when you feel you may not yet be able to speak out as freely.
“And y'all, that's the best we can do. Because even in an overwhelming situation, the fact that we tried might be just enough in the long run to tip the scale. We may not see the scale ever tip, but in the long run…And hopefully that aids in some of this encouragement of getting folks to be active, to advocate, and to look for positive change so that we can lean into the thing that makes this art so beautiful.” - Joe
Mentioned in the episode
Yumi and Joe at the Association of Program Directors in Surgery
Vulture article: A Hidden Sexual-Assault Scandal at the New York Philharmonic
Interact with Tacet No More
Tacet No More is produced by Joseph Conyers, Yumi Kendall, Andrew Mellor, Lindsay Sheridan, and Brenda Hernández Jaimes.
Follow the podcast:
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Yumi Kendall:
Hello, everyone. I'm Yumi Kendall.
Joseph Conyers:
And I'm Joseph Conyers.
Yumi Kendall:
And welcome to Tacet No More, a podcast where we are no longer silent, asking the questions that need to be asked and saying the things that need to be said about classical music.
Joseph Conyers:
Tacet No More is an optimist playground and landing pad for positive discussions about our belief in the power of music to better humanity. And we will invite voices from all sectors to inspire us in the work we do on and off the stage.
Yumi Kendall:
Joe and I have been friends for nearly 25 years and have over 40 years between us as professional musicians. We've had the best of conversations. Would you join us?
Wow, we're back.
Joseph Conyers:
We are back. Hello, everyone.
Yumi Kendall:
Hi, everyone.
Joseph Conyers:
How's it going out there?
Yumi Kendall:
Woohoo!
Joseph Conyers:
Yes, we we are back. Season two of Tacet No More.
Yumi Kendall:
My gosh, it's been a while.
Joseph Conyers:
It's been a little while.
Yumi Kendall:
It's good to be back.
Joseph Conyers:
We've been busy. We've been busy living our lives. We're doing the best we can.
Yumi Kendall:
We missed you all. Thank you so much.
Joseph Conyers:
Um, and yeah, and actually, yeah, to that point, it's been, we didn't know what we were doing when we started this, um, but the validation of all the support and the messages and, um, happenstance conversations on the street with sometimes people like, “Oh, I listened to your podcast.” That has been really, really great. I mentioned in one of the episodes, maybe in the last episode.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmhmm.
Joseph Conyers:
Of season one of how scary this was.
Yumi Kendall:
Yes.
Joseph Conyers:
It was scary. We're Tacet no more and like, oh gosh.
Yumi Kendall:
Yes.
Joseph Conyers:
But I feel like going into season two, I feel excited.
Yumi Kendall:
Yes.
Joseph Conyers:
Determined, emboldened, mainly because of that support from our wonderful audience.
Yumi Kendall:
Yes.
Joseph Conyers:
And that anxiety has kind of washed away a bit. So thank you all for that.
Yumi Kendall:
Absolutely. It's been great to hear from you all and hear the feedback and to get some solid footing that we've gotten for that first season and kind of the wind in our sails, even more than we had before.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
I think it's just, it feels more like we're flying now.
Joseph Conyers:
Absolutely. Um, so almost a year later, y'all we're here. We're happy to be back. I know some of you may have wanted to hear us maybe a little sooner. Uhh.
Yumi Kendall:
Or maybe you needed the break.
Joseph Conyers:
Or maybe.
Yumi Kendall:
But in any case, here we are.
Joseph Conyers:
That’s probably more like it.
Yumi Kendall:
Life happens. And actually, I was thinking about the times that our schedules actually coordinate.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
When we're in the same space. And that is usually when we're on stage rehearsing with orchestra with Philadelphia Orchestra.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
And then between our teaching schedules and everything else we've got going on in our lives it's it's actually a nice way to reset and to share our Tacet No More space.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
And so it's it's just a great reminder maybe we should go that could be a one good thing.
Joseph Conyers:
That's right. I'd have to say it was an exceptionally busy late winter, spring for me. I felt like I was in a different city.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmmhmm.
Joseph Conyers:
Well.
Yumi Kendall:
You.
Joseph Conyers:
It was every week and then it felt like every day.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
With a few tours and it was very, very exciting stuff.
Yumi Kendall:
And we gave our first keynote as Tacet No More. That was a blast, wasn't it? In beautiful Florida. No, we didn't go to Disney World.
Joseph Conyers:
No. There was no Disney World involved, but it was unique. I think for both of us, it was the first time presenting together.
Yumi Kendall:
Yes.
Joseph Conyers:
But it was for a thousand surgeons.
Yumi Kendall:
Program directors. It was for the Association of Program Directors in Surgery.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah, and it was neat to be able to talk about our craft.
Yumi Kendall:
Yes.
Joseph Conyers:
And our work with an audience that with a very different, but in a lot of ways parallel.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmmhmm.
Joseph Conyers:
Craft, particularly in the education piece and how one teaches the next surgeon, the next generation of surgeons.
Yumi Kendall:
Yes.
Joseph Conyers:
It was very well received and I think people really did connect with our connection with music.
Yumi Kendall:
Yes.
Joseph Conyers:
And I think it made them re-examine their own connection with their craft as physicians. It was amazing.
Yumi Kendall:
It was very inspiring to see and hear the feedback, and particularly also about our practice.
Joseph Conyers:
Mmmhmm.
Yumi Kendall:
And what practice means. We heard last year from Vijay about a daily practice, and that can be in a spiritual sense. It can also be in the daily practice at our instruments.
Joseph Conyers:
Yes.
Yumi Kendall:
Of skill building and how that connected for our audience, which happened to be physicians, in their own way without actually specifically having to articulate that. And it's really neat to think about what that word practice means.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
To each of us in our own worlds.
Joseph Conyers:
It was very much Tacet No More in that we were able to talk about a number of different issues by focusing on the work that we do ourselves.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmmhmm.
Joseph Conyers:
I think that's something as musicians that we don't think about often enough and we don't recognize as one of our superpowers.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmmhmm.
Joseph Conyers:
Mainly because ultimately, I would dare to say most of us really enjoy what we do, despite the madness of what the world might present or give us.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmmhmm.
Joseph Conyers:
But the music piece is what inspires us. Actually, there are folks who came up to us afterwards, and I think hearing and feeling love and excitement for music and how that is an ongoing thing.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmmhmm.
Joseph Conyers:
Almost like the awesomeness of what we do continually inspires us to keep going.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmmhmm.
Joseph Conyers:
And has us wanting to inspire others. That was something that really resonated with a lot of them that they told me, or told us.
Yumi Kendall:
Yeah.
Joseph Conyers:
They hadn't thought about. Which is great. So, I.
Yumi Kendall:
Yeah.
Joseph Conyers:
All that to say, I think we take what we do for granted.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmmhmm.
Joseph Conyers:
Too often and to be able to recognize this superpower and share it in this way makes us valuable resources in our communities.
Yumi Kendall:
Joe, is that your one good thing?
Joseph Conyers:
Yumi, I'm so appreciative of so many things in life, but yes, we could call that my one good thing.
Yumi Kendall:
Well, why don't we go ahead into our one good thing.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
This is, as you know from our first season, we do this exercise to reflect on something meaningful in our lives, something we're grateful for recently. or looking ahead to, and the gratitude and the connection and meaning that we feel from this helps us create the space for Tacet No More, helps us be open and be vulnerable and open-minded, really, in some of the challenging topics that we are facing, and also the wonderful things that we get to talk about.
Joseph Conyers:
Absolutely.
Yumi Kendall:
And the passion that we feel for what we do and the joy that we experience on stage. And so thinking about One Good Thing helps set the tone for these discussions. Do we want to talk about inviting our audience into our One Good Thing?
Joseph Conyers:
Absolutely. One Good Thing, as Yumi always says, “It sets the tone, sets the mood.” And I think, I mean, having grown up in the church, it's almost like we always started every meeting with a prayer.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm. Mmm-hmm.
Joseph Conyers:
To kind of set the mood, put everyone on one accord. And as we discuss some challenging topics going into the future, I, the one good thing just feels that much more needed.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm-hmm.
Joseph Conyers:
I think collectively, as we approach these topics outside of ourselves and in the world.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm-hmm.
Joseph Conyers:
We want to invite you, the listener.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm-hmm.
Joseph Conyers:
To submit your one good thing.
Yumi Kendall:
Tell us.
Joseph Conyers:
Please.
Yumi Kendall:
Share.
Joseph Conyers:
Uh. Umm. Because we live in a time where I feel like there's so much negativity.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm-hmm.
Joseph Conyers:
And as Yumi always says, “Our experience is what we pay attention to.”
Yumi Kendall:
Pay attention to. Yes.
Joseph Conyers:
Umm. So, instead of paying attention to the negative, if we can collectively, through our own hashtag, #OneGoodThingTNM, #OneGoodThingTNM, or T-N-M, T-N-M, we can concentrate on all the good that we have.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm-hmm.
Joseph Conyers:
And that we appreciate, and that will allow us to do better work for the change that we want to see in our industry.
Yumi Kendall:
And while acknowledging the negative things that are happening.
Joseph Conyers:
Of course.
Yumi Kendall:
That's actually why we are doing one good thing in a way so that we are in a mindset of positive change.
Joseph Conyers:
Correct. Correct. Correct.
Yumi Kendall:
To help promote the atmosphere and the courage and the advocacy to make the world better.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah. So please, on Instagram, on Twitter, on all of our social media platforms, hashtag #OneGoodThingTNM, and we will share your.
Yumi Kendall:
Yes.
Joseph Conyers:
One Good Thing on the air.
Yumi Kendall:
Yes.
Joseph Conyers:
So you, the audience, can be part of our conversation here, right at the table.
Yumi Kendall:
As part of this community.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
Of change makers. And one of the beautiful things about sharing our experiences together is that there's a kind of a resonance that happens when we feel the good energy bouncing around. It actually, I do imagine, and there's data on this, the effect, like in chemistry or biology in our science classes, imagining the atoms bouncing around in a little ball. And the positivity that happens actually does resonate with us emotionally. And so hearing from all of you with your own individual one good things, really helps expand the energy that Joe and I are here in the recording studio experiencing together. It helps magnify, it helps spread emotional sunshine, and we would love to do that with all of you. So, we look forward to hearing from you, your One Good Thing.
Joseph Conyers:
And we want you to be part of our growing family. So Yumi, your One Good Thing.
Yumi Kendall:
My One Good Thing.
Joseph Conyers:
Yes.
Yumi Kendall:
I gave a recital last night, which went fine. And in the Q&A part-
Joseph Conyers:
I’m sure it was amazing. What a lucky audience.
Yumi Kendall:
No, no.
Joseph Conyers:
I can't even imagine. Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
And well, the thing I wanted to say was there was a really fun Q&A after, and one of the folks asked me about my positive psychology degree and how I was using that. And I explained several of those avenues, but one of them was actually getting to have a kind of a shameless plug for Tacet No More to this audience and getting to share the excitement of starting our second season and getting to work with you, Joe, and our whole team in creating this space together.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
And it was really lovely to share that, just the excitement of our second season with this unknowing audience.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
Who was just sitting there to hear Bach and Shostakovich.
Joseph Conyers:
That's amazing.
Yumi Kendall:
What's your One Good Thing, in addition to the previous expansive One Good Thing?
Joseph Conyers:
And I should come up with another word, y'all, because I do realize I say that's amazing a lot when listening.
Yumi Kendall:
Oh, you know what? In high school, from my friend Lily B. Pierce, she gave me a little notebook. And in that notebook, I still have it. I just started a list of all of the adjectives that I could think of. And I still have it of all the amazing adjectives. Fantastic, brilliant, interesting, like everything I could think of in one book. So anyway, I could go back to this, like a thesaurus of awesomeness.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah, I was gonna say, maybe I can borrow that book. No, that was brilliant.
Yumi Kendall:
Yes, yes.
Joseph Conyers:
Absolutely brilliant. So, my one good thing, well, it was just announced. And I'm really excited about this new role because as anyone who's received an email from Joe Conyers, the signature box in my email.
Yumi Kendall:
It's a little lacking.
Joseph Conyers:
It's lacking. It needs a little sprucing up.
Yumi Kendall:
It's not extensive enough.
Joseph Conyers:
For those who have never received an email from Joseph Conyers, there's a long list of affiliations underneath my name. And to add to that list, there was an announcement made very recently about my new appointment as Education and Community Ambassador for the Philadelphia Orchestra.
Yumi Kendall:
Woohoo! It’s huge.
Joseph Conyers:
It's an exciting new position endowed by Mark and Tobey Dichter. Mark and Toby endowed my chair as Assistant Principal Bass of the orchestra. And with my new role as Principal Bass, I moved into a chair that was endowed in perpetuity by the all so wonderful.
Yumi Kendall:
Amazing, as you might say.
Joseph Conyers:
Carole Gravagno.
Yumi Kendall:
Yes.
Joseph Conyers:
That chairs endowed in perpetuity. So I'm excited that Mark and Tobey have instilled this sort of belief in me.
Yumi Kendall:
Yes.
Joseph Conyers:
The work that I've done in the community over the years, given my time in the orchestra, I'm excited about the possibilities to use the role as a platform to bring facets of the community together in Philadelphia that may not have felt connected to the orchestra in different ways, but there's also opportunity to do work internally within the institution and our own community so that the work we do collectively can be collective so that we are at our best when we're outward facing toward the world.
Yumi Kendall:
I just want to applaud the vision of, well, first of all, Joe, congratulations. So, well deserved.
Joseph Conyers:
Thank you.
Yumi Kendall:
And how amazing is it that folks like the Dichters had the vision to co-create this new role for a specific person. This is not just something that's like a random person. They're just going to fill an empty chair. It's for Joe. And it's because of his leadership and who he is that is so inspiring that has generated this vision and the opportunity and the generosity from from the Dichters.
Joseph Conyers:
And I do want to make the point it is an endowed position so I am the first to hold this position. I'm excited that this position can live on and that it might inspire others to be involved and think outwardly given the wonderful work that we do inside these Hollywood halls.
Yumi Kendall:
Yeah.
Joseph Conyers:
I'm honored, I'm definitely humbled, but I'm also encouraged and motivated like anyone who has supported whether it's Project 440 or any of the endeavors, I always feel like it's a challenge.
Yumi Kendall:
Yes. Yes.
Joseph Conyers:
With that kind of faith instilled in me, it's a challenge to go out and then actually do the work that needs to be done.
Yumi Kendall:
Yes.
Joseph Conyers:
So, it's great. And so that's my One Good Thing.
Yumi Kendall:
This is incredible. I mean, it speaks to the community of giving that we have here in Philadelphia. Actually, your One Good Thing, speaking of resonance and like atoms bouncing around, I'm reminded of another huge, very good thing is by the time this episode is released.
Joseph Conyers:
That’s right.
Yumi Kendall:
Our concert hall will be the Marian Anderson Hall.
Joseph Conyers:
Marian Anderson.
Yumi Kendall:
Thanks to Richard Worley and Leslie Miller and the vision and the generosity to give in perpetuity.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
And have an artist's name on the concert hall, the first Black woman who was barred from DAR Constitution Hall.
Joseph Conyers:
Yes.
Yumi Kendall:
And sang in Lincoln Memorial and who was barred because of her race.
Joseph Conyers:
Yes.
Yumi Kendall:
And the significance of this, I'm getting goosebumps just thinking about it and how meaningful it is and how, like you said, I'm humbled to be a part of an institution and have folks who believe in that and what that effect can have on our music making and our presence in Philadelphia.
Joseph Conyers:
Marian Anderson. From Philadelphia, famed Contralto. There's actually a famous picture of her hanging at the Curtis Institute of Music that I remember seeing right before my audition. So, I feel like that was my first introduction to Marian Anderson.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmmm.
Joseph Conyers:
And one of very few artists to have a concert hall named after them, which is amazing.
Yumi Kendall:
We have a lot of good things resonating around.
Joseph Conyers:
Yes, yes. And as a reminder, we want to hear yours as well.
Yumi Kendall:
So, thank you all for sharing your One Good Things and using the hashtag #OneGoodThingTNM. We look forward to hearing your One Good Things. In setting the tone for our space here, we actually had recorded most of our season two episodes this spring and then some very important events came to light. And we are led by current events. And the one we're speaking of specifically is what we're going to call The Article by journalist Sammy Sussman from Vulture.com, the publication. And most of us read about this through Katherine Needleman's Facebook page. Katherine is the Principal Oboe of the Baltimore Symphony and was one of our guests on our first season.
Joseph Conyers:
Episode three.
Yumi Kendall:
Episode three of season one last year. And the article, which is linked in our episode description. Describes how an untenured new musician, Cara Kizer, who won a competitive international audition for one of the best orchestras in the world, the New York Philharmonic, and one of the first women in its brass section, was allegedly drugged and raped by two members of the New York Philharmonic in 2010. Her only female colleague in the brass section, Amanda Stewart, also an untenured player, was the only colleague to publicly defend Kara's story. Both were subsequently denied tenure. The two tenured union members and alleged perpetrators were fired by the New York Philharmonic in 2018, but those members were reinstated after they appealed to their union in 2020 in arbitration that then ruled in favor of those two members. Quoting from the article, “The union ruled in favor of the alleged perpetrators, citing the fact that the, quote, “Events at issue occurred some 8, 10, and 12 years prior, and the potential degradation of corroborative evidence over time."” The two members returned to playing in the New York Philharmonic. They played until the release of this article in April 2024 and were subsequently suspended again from the New York Philharmonic. This is an ongoing investigation.
Joseph Conyers:
Well, first of all, I would like to acknowledge the bravery of both Cara and Amanda.
Yumi Kendall:
Yes.
Joseph Conyers:
For speaking out on something so catastrophic in a space, and I hate to say this, notorious for accepting things as they are.
Yumi Kendall:
Status quo.
Joseph Conyers:
Status quo.
Yumi Kendall:
Yeah.
Joseph Conyers:
That amount of, hmm, friction is not strong enough a word. Dissonance is a little bit better. But that, to take on, it's more David and Goliath.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely.
Joseph Conyers:
To take on in the space is just, it's so, it's just so admirable.
Yumi Kendall:
Yes.
Joseph Conyers:
And the fact that, and they know this. They are not the only.
Yumi Kendall:
They’re not alone.
Joseph Conyers:
Folks.
Yumi Kendall:
Yeah
Joseph Conyers:
To have gone through this situation, but because of their advocacy.
Yumi Kendall:
Yes.
Joseph Conyers:
They are making change, starting conversations in the industry that will hopefully help save and maybe even prevent these instances from ever happening in the workplace. But we still have a long, long way to go.
Yumi Kendall:
I mean, I think about one of Katherine Needleman's posts about what it takes. And for those of you who are listening who are not in the classical music orchestra industry, what it takes to win a position in the New York Philharmonic as one of three or maybe four trombone players.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
Which are solo instruments, meaning you're the only one playing your part. What it takes to win an international audition and be the one to receive the job offer.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
You are in the top echelon in the world.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
And And to think about the artistic loss, when we think about the floodgates that have opened because of Cara's and Amanda's bravery in speaking out, the floodgates that have opened about other people's terrible experiences in the industry and how they've been not able to speak out for fear of retaliation and any other reasons. Umm. Thinking about the artistic loss.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
That happens when these phenomenal players do not get to have their musical voice on stage because of the systems in place, because of the misogyny, because of the racism.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah. Yes.
Yumi Kendall:
In another whole other sphere that we've been seeing as well. And that is why we are here.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
That is why we need to make these changes. so that they don't have to happen again and so that those systems need to be improved. So let's actually, Joe, you attended the silent peaceful protest.
Joseph Conyers:
Yes, just recently on the steps. I don't even want to say on the steps because we weren't allowed on the steps, but on the sidewalk in front of Lincoln Center. Just. Just where.
Yumi Kendall:
Where the New York Philharmonic performs.
Joseph Conyers:
Just this past week and I thought it was really important to be there because when reading, and you see this throughout the article, there seemed to be a lot of advocacy for the members of the Philharmonic. And I would say everyone's, I mean we live in the United States, everyone is due their representation.
Yumi Kendall:
Yes. Yep. Due process.
Joseph Conyers:
But who who was speaking for Cara and Amanda?
Yumi Kendall:
Yes.
Joseph Conyers:
That’s. When you read the article, I mean, the absence of that is astonishing.
Yumi Kendall:
The silence is deafening.
Joseph Conyers:
Deafening.
Yumi Kendall:
The lack of action was deafening. So the protest was organized by Lara St. John, who is a concert violinist, and is another victim of sexual assault whose own experience was reported by The Philadelphia Inquirer and also an independent law firm's investigation. And the protest was to petition of some 6,000 plus names to pressure the New York Philharmonic into releasing Cara from her NDA, from her non-disclosure agreement, following her denial of tenure.
Joseph Conyers:
Right.
Yumi Kendall:
And settlement departure from the New York Philharmonic, following these allegations and following the investigation.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
To keep her silent.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
This is what the industry is still like, that victims are still forced to be silent. So, the protest was a silent, peaceful protest. And also, of course, with Katharine Needleman's advocacy and presence there as well.
Joseph Conyers:
Yes. Yes.
Yumi Kendall:
You attended that.
Joseph Conyers:
And kudos to Katherine. I mean, I feel like we can't say this enough. I mean, she's the one who brought this to the world. Uh. Umm. Through her advocacy, her many years of advocacy, which made her like a trusted voice in this space. And umm because of her efforts, Lara's efforts, I mean.
Yumi Kendall:
Yeah.
Joseph Conyers:
One can hope that uh change is on the way.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm. Mhhm.
Joseph Conyers:
I mean, we can hope for that. But again, going back to this week, I just thought it was really important to show my support.
Yumi Kendall:
Yes, thank you.
Joseph Conyers:
Umm. Because that's the only way, Yumi, it's the only way we can actually make for the change. It reminds me of the section of actually, White Fragility, which I read.
Yumi Kendall:
Yes.
Joseph Conyers:
I thought it would be an interesting read.
Yumi Kendall:
Yes.
Joseph Conyers:
And it was a very good read and talking about how women got the right to vote. It wasn't because women supported the right to vote. Of course they did, but it was because men advocated for it.
Yumi Kendall:
Yes.
Joseph Conyers:
It was important that men show up because they were the ones who were allowed to vote.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
And to make for that change. And I just thought that was really important.
Yumi Kendall:
Yes.
Joseph Conyers:
So in this instance, it's not only just being male, but... being part of a community that should be advocating for those to not have their voices silenced. And again, to prevent these things from happening in the future.
Yumi Kendall:
I just got to say, showing up as a man to this protest, that was a huge symbol of support. Because I would expect many women to be there in support of each other, just the same way Black Lives Matter or other movements. It's those outside of that identity group that need to, like to your point about women's rights. It's those who do not identify as the ones needing the change that need to advocate for the change.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah. Let's talk about that. I think, because it is hard. For as someone who has not done a lot of protests in that way, I mean, it's interesting being on the streets, holding up a sign.
Yumi Kendall:
Yeah.Joseph Conyers:
In New York City with lots of traffic going by.
Yumi Kendall:
And being interviewed by what, the Washington Post?
Joseph Conyers:
Washington Post.
Yumi Kendall:
You were?
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah, correct. Being interviewed by all these different voices.
Yumi Kendall:
That presence and that visibility is a very important type of advocacy.
Joseph Conyers:
Yes.
Yumi Kendall:
Being on the, quote unquote, “really on the front lines”, actually. Holding the signs, giving interviews, showing your face, and being physically present and visible.
Joseph Conyers:
Right.
Yumi Kendall:
Is an enormous way of making the change, as well as all of the other ways that we can show our courage and advocacy.
Joseph Conyers:
When we started this podcast, I think one of the things I mentioned in one of the first episodes was how hard and strange it felt to be, in many ways, taking on this, I don't know how to describe it, I don't want to be too negative, but like this beast
Yumi Kendall:
Yeah.
Joseph Conyers:
Of an institution. The status quo.
Yumi Kendall:
Yes. Yes.
Joseph Conyers:
The status quo being the beast.
Yumi Kendall:
Yep. Yep.
Joseph Conyers:
How hard it is.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm-hmm
Joseph Conyers:
How bad it feels. I mean, or how uncomfortable is what I should say.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm-hmm.
Joseph Conyers:
Because ultimately I felt great. I would almost challenge the many musicians in the sphere and non-musicians in any space. If you see an injustice, what can we do collectively to make sure that injustice doesn't take place despite the status quo?
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
In a profession where we're just taught to play our notes.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm-hmm.
Joseph Conyers:
Stay in our practice room, stay in line, can't talk when we're in rehearsal.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm-hmm.
Joseph Conyers:
Can't have an idea because the conductor wants to do something different or your section leader wants to do something different, in the space to challenge the status quo. But it's the only way. I think about this as a black person, again, going back to White Fragility. Not only Blacks died.
Yumi Kendall:
Yeah.
Joseph Conyers:
So that slavery could be eradicated, everyone could be free, but white people died as well.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm-hmm.
Joseph Conyers:
And it was a collective effort.
Yumi Kendall:
Right. Right.
Joseph Conyers:
I know that sounds maybe like an extreme case, in which cases should make our work easier because no one's dying, hopefully, but the idea of leaning into that discomfort/
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm-hmm.
Joseph Conyers:
Trusting that the outcome.
Yumi Kendall:
Yeah.
Joseph Conyers:
Will alleviate that weight.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm-hmm.
Joseph Conyers:
And the heaviness of that discomfort because the outcome means a safe work environment. The outcome means a place where everyone is seen as an equal and has a voice and doesn't feel like they have to be silenced in any way.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
Which makes for a better culture. It makes for, to me, would then make for better music making.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
And a better organization or institution that can be outward facing as an example for the rest of the world, not just via the notes we play, but how we actually handle our business as it were.
Yumi Kendall:
Yeah, exactly. And thinking about the artistic, potential artistic loss that the industry might experience for folks who leave the industry because of the frustrations and the traumas they've experienced.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
That have not been resolved or addressed. That have been swept under the rug, or NDAs signed and settlements for payoff to keep your mouth shut.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
I mean, that's, I think about the Cara’s out there and the Amanda's out there who are amazing.
Joseph Conyers:
Yes.
Yumi Kendall:
Amazing musicians. I mean, what it takes to get to that level, as I was saying. And our industry needs to be addressing these. And I think about on Katharine Needleman's website, she has collected all of the stories and anecdotes that she has received since the article.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
Came out in April. And for most of us who have experienced some kind of setback or workplace injustice, that can be a very harrowing experience to write down these experiences.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
And so for each person who's done that and written down their traumas with the identifying information redacted so that Katherine is not held liable rightfully. I mean, we're still in that phase, right? So check out Katherine's website, KatherineNeedleman.com, where these stories, the floodgates have opened and it is a different kind of space.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
It's a solidarity. It's also very sad.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
And of course, trigger warnings for anybody who might need to be forewarned because there is no holding back with the challenges and the traumas that have been going on for a very long time.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah. I would like to say, just like with the we're actually at the four year anniversary of the murder of George Floyd.
Yumi Kendall:
Yes.
Joseph Conyers:
And just like in that time, there were lots of statements made. There was the symbolism of the blacked out.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
Thing on Instagram, the blackout profile pic.
Yumi Kendall:
Yep.
Joseph Conyers:
There were statements made after this article came out from various organizations, particularly in the music world, in support of Cara. Which, I mean, I think to provide support is great, but I'm gonna say this under the lens of the Black Lives Matter of four years ago. Yumi, the words ring so empty to me.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm-hmm.
Joseph Conyers:
Unless there's actual actionable items that take place to make for prevention in the future. And that's, for me, that is the most important piece, because just as we're seeing with the statements that were made with the death of and murder of George Floyd. Some of those things actually are being rescinded.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm.
Joseph Conyers:
I mean, in one city in Virginia, I just saw there's the confederate, I think Robert Lee and another confederate general, their names are being added back to the schools.
Yumi Kendall:
Oh my gosh.
Joseph Conyers:
The names of the schools were changed. But it wasn't in the community to actually make for the change. It was a thing that looked good in the moment. Yumi what do we do so that the statements that have been made post that article aren't something that we do in the moment?
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
To our listeners.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
What are we doing so that the statements that all of our organizations made are not something that we're doing in the moment?
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
I think That goes to me, the advocacy piece.
Yumi Kendall:
Yes. Yes.
Joseph Conyers:
The leaning into the discomfort.
Yumi Kendall:
Yep.
Joseph Conyers:
That goes into our CBA work.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
There was language. Changed, it added both, apparently both, this is in the article, both for Local 802.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm-hmm.
Joseph Conyers:
And for the New York Philharmonic in their 2020 CBA.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm-hmm.
Joseph Conyers:
That made for these instances.
Yumi Kendall:
Right. Right.
Joseph Conyers:
To be taken more credibly by the institutions themselves.
Yumi Kendall:
Yeah.
Joseph Conyers:
And to better protect those who come forward.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm-hmm.
Joseph Conyers:
Are we all looking at our CBAs? Again, don't change the hashtag, change the language.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
In the places that matter so that change can actually take place.
Yumi Kendall:
Right. I will, in our spirit of One Good Thing and open and vulnerability, I will actually respectfully disagree that the statements don't matter. They ring hollow when they do not propel change.
Joseph Conyers:
Right.
Yumi Kendall:
That is what I'm hearing.
Joseph Conyers:
Yes.
Yumi Kendall:
And I agree with that. The words are empty if they're just words. I think that for victims of trauma, of assault, actually hearing the words of support, hearing the words, “We support Cara”, actually helps Cara, I hope.
Joseph Conyers:
Of course.
Yumi Kendall:
And of course, I know that's so.
Joseph Conyers:
Yes.
Yumi Kendall:
I'm expanding on the nuance of these words.
Joseph Conyers:
Correct.
Yumi Kendall:
That on their own do not propel change at the practical.
Joseph Conyers:
Correct.
Yumi Kendall:
And necessary level. They hopefully will support the individuals who have been harmed so they feel emotional support from the, I don't know if there's anything that, there's nothing that can repair, except their own processes, but the silence.
Joseph Conyers:
Yep.
Yumi Kendall:
That was deafening.
Joseph Conyers:
Yep.
Yumi Kendall:
That vocalization of public support.
Joseph Conyers:
Yes.
Yumi Kendall:
Is essential, and I'm just building on what you were saying, absolutely.
Joseph Conyers:
I agree a thousand percent because they should be supported, uplifted in every way. I think the layer of issue that I have is when it becomes like, “Oh, they made a statement, we're going to make a statement.”
Yumi Kendall:
Exactly.
Joseph Conyers:
And it ends up being the act of making the statement.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
Is the statement.
Yumi Kendall:
Right. Right.
Joseph Conyers:
Versus the words behind the statement that say something's actually.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
Going to happen.
Yumi Kendall:
Right. So hashtag #WeSupportCara and here is our to-do list.
Joseph Conyers:
Correct. That is correct.
Yumi Kendall:
That we're going to be changing our language.
Joseph Conyers:
That is correct.
Yumi Kendall:
We're going to be sharing our tenure and review processes, audition practices.
Joseph Conyers:
That is correct.
Yumi Kendall:
Or tenure practices so that everybody's on the same page. We know what the expectations are. This is our to-do list in support of we support Cara.
Joseph Conyers:
Correct, because.
Yumi Kendall:
Right? Yeah.
Joseph Conyers:
In the same way, I mean, again, I'll speak as a Black person. As a Black person, seeing the black squares meant nothing to me.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm-hmm.
Joseph Conyers:
Personally.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm-hmm.
Joseph Conyers:
I never changed my square to Black, maybe because I am Black, so I didn't have to change my square to Black.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm-hmm.
Joseph Conyers:
But unless it comes with the supporting.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
Material.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
That will make for the change, it's just, it's virtue signaling.
Yumi Kendall:
I have a.
Joseph Conyers:
So to me, there is a difference, Yumi, and I think it is a fine point to make. Supporting Cara and Amanda is super important. It can't be-
Yumi Kendall:
Instead of.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah, instead of, or it's just, again, it's the virtue signaling component of it. Like, oh, we have to do this thing, we have to do this thing.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
We have to do this thing. And then we give ourselves a pat on the back like we did something when we actually did nothing.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
And I think both Amanda and Cara would appreciate the fact that those statements led to further action, which is why this goes back to Katherine. I think the work that Katherine does is so important, keeps everything at the forefront.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm-hmm.
Joseph Conyers:
Keeps these conversations at the forefront. Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
If there is something harmful or words with no action, is that the organization can pat themselves on the back and then do nothing. And in that sense, the false affirmation of support on the organization's part.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
That can be harmful in the sense that they're just giving themselves a pat on the back.
Joseph Conyers:
Correct.
Yumi Kendall:
And nothing else.
Joseph Conyers:
Right.
Yumi Kendall:
So, do you think that the we support or the hashtag or Black Lives Matter the square the black box. Are those ever actively harmful? Or is it only when it's the context of the organization or the person patting themselves.
Joseph Conyers:
That is correct.
Yumi Kendall:
On the back for false support or superficial support that does not promote actual change?
Joseph Conyers:
Correct. I don't think there's anything harmful about it.
Yumi Kendall:
Okay.
Joseph Conyers:
Except for the fact that, yes, the organizations or society gives themselves a pat on the back so that they can move on to the next fad or next thing to care deeply about until it's something else. Does that?
Yumi Kendall:
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Joseph Conyers:
Because I think for so many communities, it rings true of this kind of false sense of like, “Oh, we've got your back, we've got your back.” When ultimately society says, “No, we actually don't.”
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
But we said this because it was fashionable.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
At the time.
Yumi Kendall:
Right. Or at least not harmful.
Joseph Conyers:
No, that's correct. That's correct.
Yumi Kendall:
Right. Right.
Joseph Conyers:
So, I mean, there's an old Baptist song, probably not just Baptist, but gospel song called, May the Work I've Done Speak for Me.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm.
Joseph Conyers:
That resonates so strongly for me because in the song there's not about what I've said, “Because words don't do anything, it's the work that I've done.” And Yumi, that's how I've modeled my life. I remember during that time, There was all this protest, of course, during George Floyd. All the protests and everyone felt like they had to say something.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm-hmm.
Joseph Conyers:
And I actually went to my students.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm-hmm.
Joseph Conyers:
Of Project 440.
Yumi Kendall:
I remember that. I remember that.
Joseph Conyers:
And I asked them first, I said, “Do you want me to say something?”
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm-hmm.
Joseph Conyers:
And they said “Yes.”
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm-hmm.
Joseph Conyers:
And I ended up, so to honor my students, I ended up writing an open letter to them.
Yumi Kendall:
Yes, I remember that. That was very powerful.
Joseph Conyers:
And the open letter said that, “So you may not see me with a hashtag. You may not see me change my Instagram profile pic. You may not see these things, but know that every day I am working to help you in meetings and the advocacy work that I do for you in the community every single day.” Because to me, that's the thing that will really help my kids. Now, to your point, Yumi, they wanted to see my support.
Yumi Kendall:
Yes.
Joseph Conyers:
They did want to see my support. I was really excited to come up with this idea of the open letter.
Yumi Kendall:
It was beautiful.
Joseph Conyers:
Because I could actually address them.
Yumi Kendall:
Yes.
Joseph Conyers:
While also making my point to the rest of the world that, to me, the work is really, really important. So yeah, I hope that makes sense.
Yumi Kendall:
Which is a beautiful, beautiful and powerful example of the variety of ways that each and every one of us.
Joseph Conyers:
Yes.
Yumi Kendall:
Can make a difference.
Joseph Conyers:
Yes.
Yumi Kendall:
With our actions, with, in your case, your leadership role for Project 440, and choosing to address them in this open letter. I remember that. That was so powerful. Rather than the empty or the hollow Black Lives Matter black box.
Joseph Conyers:
Correct.
Yumi Kendall:
Or in the current dynamic of We Support Cara, which of course we do.
Joseph Conyers:
Absolutely.
Yumi Kendall:
It's that it needs to be followed by the active changes in our.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
In our language and in our tenure review processes and in all of it.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
I'm actually reminded of a book I really, really loved by Susan Cain.
Joseph Conyers:
Mmm-hmm.
Yumi Kendall:
Called Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World that Can't Stop Talking.
Joseph Conyers:
Mmm. That’s a great title.
Yumi Kendall:
And it's about it's a leadership book. So this is nothing to say about any of the current advocacy styles going on.
Joseph Conyers:
Right.
Yumi Kendall:
I'm simply referencing the book because I really related to that, the importance of that quiet voice.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
Because each one of us has our own style of advocating and each person has their own style of expressing our courage.
Joseph Conyers:
Yep.
Yumi Kendall:
And our own contexts for expressing our courage. for that change, and so I wanna also address on here, and your beautiful letter, your open letter to your students, and the Black Lives Matter movement, is such a powerful example of what each of us can do in our own way, in our own context. Actually, I highly recommend reading, and Susan Cain's writing anyway.
Joseph Conyers:
I’ll have to add it to my list.
Yumi Kendall:
As validating the different styles of advocacy, the importance of our, of knowing ourselves and the ways that we're comfortable showing our courage.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
In our own contexts, in our own worlds, and that every voice matters.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah. I think what's most important about that, Yumi, is the fact that we advocate. We are so fortunate to do what we do. We get to play music all the time. And despite all the madness that exists in our profession, it is a very privileged space. I have two siblings who are in corporate who talk to me all the time, I think with a hint of jealousy in their.
Yumi Kendall:
Yeah.
Joseph Conyers:
Voice about I get to do something that I love every day.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm-hmm.
Joseph Conyers:
And I think it's very easy to then become complacent because we live in the space where we get to do this thing.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
And we can go about our business and act like the rest of the world doesn't exist. Not realizing that a few things. One, unless you live the gig life at the beginning of your career.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
That life is not this easy.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
Maybe it's for some of us who did have to go through that process.
Yumi Kendall:
Yes.
Joseph Conyers:
Umm. It's easier to think about, oh, I have to work to get something.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
But somehow amongst our peers and colleagues, the advocacy work, we have to figure out a way to instill that want, that want for change.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
Because unless we add a number that is greater than, I guess, 50%.
Yumi Kendall:
Uh-huh.
Joseph Conyers:
Unless we push for it.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
Things will remain the same.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
And the thing is, I don't even fault, some people say I should fault, but I don't necessarily even fault those who just don't know. Or know better.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm-hmm.
Joseph Conyers:
Because this is the only life that they've lived.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm-hmm.
Joseph Conyers:
They're in this profession, they've been told to play an instrument, now they're on the stage playing it, and they're just living their life. Their concern isn't about these exterior issues.
Yumi Kendall:
External. Yeah.
Joseph Conyers:
External. Thank you.
Yumi Kendall:
Uh-huh.
Joseph Conyers:
Issues that may get in the way. They're just trying to do their thing. But I, with opportunity in the space becomes, comes.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm-hmm.
Joseph Conyers:
The responsibility of having to do something. And I don't know what schools can do.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm-hmm.
Joseph Conyers:
I don't know what we can do in music education.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm-hmm.
Joseph Conyers:
I don't know what can be done in the space so that we can at least... have gratitude.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
I mean, things we've talked about.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
So many times.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
Appreciate what we have and say, “How can we, one, make it better? How can we make sure, in this conversation, how can we make the space safe for everyone?”
Yumi Kendall:
Yes.
Joseph Conyers:
“How can we make it so that whenever everyone comes to work, that they're in an environment where they can be their authentic selves, whether regardless of their sex, regardless of their.”
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm-hmm.
Joseph Conyers:
“Sexual orientation.”
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm-hmm.
Joseph Conyers:
“Regardless of their race, We have the power to actually do that.”
Yumi Kendall:
Yes.
Joseph Conyers:
This is something that the Black Orchestral Network, which we'll have later on in the season, talks about. We have power to do that. The musicians actually have to push for that change. If we don't push, then it just sits there.
Yumi Kendall:
Yeah.
Joseph Conyers:
And these things are allowed to happen over and over.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
And over again.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
Because the worst thing that has happened with the situation, with the revealing of Cara and Amanda's story, is I'm hearing these stories from my colleagues.
Yumi Kendall:
Yeah.
Joseph Conyers:
My friends, and I'm literally.
Yumi Kendall:
Yeah.
Joseph Conyers:
Yumi, I am shocked.
Yumi Kendall:
Yeah.
Joseph Conyers:
But some of the things some of my own friends had felt they needed to be quiet about because they weren't in a space that was safe enough for them to voice what happened to them, or felt like they have no agency.
Yumi Kendall:
Yeah.
Joseph Conyers:
“Or no one's gonna listen to me.” Or they didn't have a voice because they were a substitute.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
Or didn't have tenure.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
So, they have to keep their mouths shut so they can keep their job.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
They don't wanna muddy the waters.
Yumi Kendall:
Right. Right.
Joseph Conyers:
And it's just, that's been the worst part of this, because I'm hearing it more and more.
Yumi Kendall:
Yes.
Joseph Conyers:
But all it makes me want to do then is go back to the advocacy pieces, and that is, what can we do to make for the change?
Yumi Kendall:
Yeah.
Joseph Conyers:
How can we inspire each other? That we're all worth it.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
These are people we work with every day. They are worth it. They deserve these things.
Yumi Kendall:
Right. Right.
Joseph Conyers:
I mean, I'm thinking about tenure and those who had to go through tenure processes where they had no advocates.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
It was a process that's stupid. And I say this pretty openly, where there's no record of what's expected or feedback going back to candidates.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
Where there's a conflict of interest of folks sitting on committees.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
Like in the case of Cara and Amanda.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
Where the folks who are who are involved in the situation even if just tangentially or part of the decision-making? But like I just.
Yumi Kendall:
Right right.
Joseph Conyers:
I don’t. Yumi, it’s a lot.
Yumi Kendall:
We have a lot of work to do.
Joseph Conyers:
It's a lot.
Yumi Kendall:
A lot of work to do. I'm reminded of our in our lives in our performance lives about the work, on the one hand, the significant amount of work that needs to be done. And in fact, I think the responsibility is directly proportional with the greater privilege.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
Right? Like the more secure we are, the more complacent we can become.
Joseph Conyers:
Yep.
Yumi Kendall:
But actually the more responsibility.
Joseph Conyers:
Correct.
Yumi Kendall:
We have to promote the change.
Joseph Conyers:
It takes some form of inspiration. I hardly even want to say that because you would think these acts would be inspiration enough.
Yumi Kendall:
Right. I also don't want to make any excuse for not taking action for those in privileged tenured positions of major orchestras.
Joseph Conyers:
Right.
Yumi Kendall:
Because we're practicing or we're teaching and we're otherwise passing the torch or holding.
Joseph Conyers:
Correct.
Yumi Kendall:
The torch burning brightly. but we're also very, very busy.
Joseph Conyers:
Yes.
Yumi Kendall:
So it's about making choices.
Joseph Conyers:
It’s a. Right, and it's a balance. I mean, I talk about choices with my young people all the time, and it's about a balance. And I mean, some people say like, “Joe, you spent all this time, you've always been working in the community, blah, blah, blah.” I mean, but while I was at Curtis, I was really working hard to learn to play the bass because I was in that space. Now, did I always have a foot to the outside? Yes. I was teaching.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm-hmm.
Joseph Conyers:
Free lessons to public school students while I was a student at Curtis. I was thinking outwardly and being involved in the Curtis community.
Yumi Kendall:
Yup.
Joseph Conyers:
But you see, Yumi, this is season one stuff. This is stuff that was ingrained.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm-hmm.
Joseph Conyers:
In me before I even started.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
The Curtis Institute of Music.
Yumi Kendall:
Right. Right.
Joseph Conyers:
So, this goes to your conversation of positive psych. in that how do we create a space where these things, if these are not part of your inherent or.
Yumi Kendall:
In your DNA.
Joseph Conyers:
DNA. How do we infuse them into your DNA so it becomes part of the culture of the institution.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
And the culture of the people who are in that institution?
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
Please tell us.
Yumi Kendall:
Well.
Joseph Conyers:
Please now.
Yumi Kendall:
That was like one of the reasons I went to study positive psychology, you know, “Can you hire for intrinsic motivation?”
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
So, if somebody doesn't have a fire to keep the match lit for 35, 40 years, what are the external motivators that can help inject some fire into an individual to help keep them going in a true, in a way that's authentic to themselves?
Joseph Conyers:
Right.
Yumi Kendall:
Of course. And I'm talking about things like our community engagement or actually just being enthusiastic for the job.
Joseph Conyers:
Yep.
Yumi Kendall:
For the position day in, day out, and maintaining that same integrity that won the job.
Joseph Conyers:
Correct.
Yumi Kendall:
And maintaining that through the decades.
Joseph Conyers:
Yes.
Yumi Kendall:
That goes back to the nature or nurture question.
Joseph Conyers:
Right.
Yumi Kendall:
You were instilled with that from a young age. I, from my Waldorf education and Suzuki days, feel I have those traits in me from that in my family and my own community growing up. And, you know, we're not going to interview people in their auditions for, you know, if they grew up in a certain.
Joseph Conyers:
Right.
Yumi Kendall:
Community. That's not how we do things.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
We want their artistic excellence to shine first and foremost, and.
Joseph Conyers:
Correct.
Yumi Kendall:
Be thinking about citizenship. What does that mean?
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
Now and what are our own different authentic ways we can show our citizenship as individuals in this larger collective? Be it an organization like an orchestra or be it through the larger community of the industry in the United States, for example.
Joseph Conyers:
Right.
Yumi Kendall:
But what does that citizenship, and I'm using that instead of the word advocacy.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
To tie it back to like we support Cara. What does that look like and how can the institution and how can the systems promote that authentic individual contribution?
Joseph Conyers:
Yes. Yes.
Yumi Kendall:
And advocacy?
Joseph Conyers:
Absolutely. And in addition to that, recognizing that artistic excellence is not an excuse. That is something our industry has also been very guilty of.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
Sweeping things under the rug because they are so great.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
That's a reckoning for us.
Yumi Kendall:
How many, how many, how many folks? Yeah, I'm going to stop. I'm not going to say that. No, I was going to say like how many Amanda's and Kara's to say, you know, “They're so great.” They've been put on a pedestal, a conductor or a #MeToo.
Joseph Conyers:
Correct.
Yumi Kendall:
Perpetrator. On the other hand, they're the artistic greats whose voices are shunned and silenced.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
Because they are victims.
Joseph Conyers:
Right.
Yumi Kendall:
And they've been wronged, be it through wrongful tenure denial.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
In Cara's case, in Amanda's case, in our racist, still racist society.
Joseph Conyers:
But there is an hierarchy because once you become a victim, you are lower in the hierarchy because I feel like the victim becomes then the problem.
Yumi Kendall:
You are silenced.
Joseph Conyers:
Exactly.
Yumi Kendall:
You get an NDA, you are paid to leave.
Joseph Conyers:
So exactly.
Yumi Kendall:
“You are the problem.”
Joseph Conyers:
So, that's when the artistic excellence is shoved shoved aside.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
Umm. Isn't that backwards? Like, come on.
Yumi Kendall:
It's awful.
Joseph Conyers:
Really?
Yumi Kendall:
Yeah.
Joseph Conyers:
We go back to Katharine Needleman's page, because there's lots of information on Katharine Needleman's page, but like, the fact, the comments, with all the folks that are being, is everyone knew, everyone knew, everyone knew. Well, if everyone knows, how on earth are they still given the platform.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
Of being in the spotlight.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
To stand before an orchestra.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
Get all the applause, and all this praise and attention?
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
To me, it makes, hmm. Yeah, it's a lot to think about in our profession. And the thing is, it's not even just us. So again, I think the larger question that arises from these is what are we doing to change our space so that, again, we can advocate, so that it's safe, and so that the artistic excellence is something that's celebrated amongst all of us because of that safe space and that has morals? I mean.
Yumi Kendall:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Joseph Conyers:
That's what it comes down to.
Yumi Kendall:
Yeah. Yeah.
Joseph Conyers:
It has morals. Because, I mean.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
Because only without morals, that's just the truth, only without morals could we just continue just to let these things happen over and over and over and over again.
Yumi Kendall:
There's the bystander syndrome, which.
Joseph Conyers:
Correct.
Yumi Kendall:
Is when everybody's, there's so many people witnessing a crime.
Joseph Conyers:
Yep.
Yumi Kendall:
And everybody thinks that somebody else is going to take care of calling 911.
Joseph Conyers:
Yep.
Yumi Kendall:
And I think we're seeing, I mean now it's because of Kara's courage.Joseph Conyers:
Yep.
Yumi Kendall:
I think we're seeing a big shift in that. But the bystander syndrome is probably the human story.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
Behind why things have, the status quo has remained so long. Also because those who have experienced the crime or the trauma or the assault or the, the misogyny or the racism are not in positions of power.
Joseph Conyers:
Correct.
Yumi Kendall:
In whatever way because their substitutes, are not tenured or they do not carry as strong a role as somebody else or as the perpetrator.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
Or the alleged perpetrator.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
So, the change is difficult. It's the women's vote situation.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah, yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
Or or finally slavery ending.
Joseph Conyers:
Right. Right.
Yumi Kendall:
And this is 400 years took and we're still having the ramifications.
Joseph Conyers:
Correct.
Yumi Kendall:
Of slavery. So, I don't know how long this is gonna, we have a lot of work to do.
Joseph Conyers:
We have a lot of work to do, and I don't wanna give the impression, because now it sounds like the classical music world is this cesspool of cover-ups and, I mean, but I don't think it's unlike a lot of the rest of the world. I think in our space, it's just been able to survive. The Petri dish, if you will, was set up in a way that allows for the bacteria to continue to grow. And I think it's time to pull out the Lysol.
Yumi Kendall:
You know what, Petri dish could also be like where beautiful new life happens.
Joseph Conyers:
Right.
Yumi Kendall:
So we could, you know, there are ways of making this transformation happen.
Joseph Conyers:
That’s right.
Yumi Kendall:
With or without the Lysol. But yes. Or like mold, or like the back of the refrigerator.
Joseph Conyers:
Right.
Yumi Kendall:
Is like, oh, what color mold do you have back there? Red, mold, green, is it tall, is it furry, is it spotted? But then, yeah, anyway.
Joseph Conyers:
So it's a crazy conversation, because again, and I think wrapping up this conversation and looking at the rest of the season, what we do is so magnificent. What we do is something that that we can do it over and over and over. I don't know how many, I don't know about you, but I played the Beethoven trio of his Fifth Symphony more times than, I mean.
Yumi Kendall:
A lot.
Joseph Conyers:
A lot.
Yumi Kendall:
It's been a lot.
Joseph Conyers:
Than there are stars in the sky. Okay, maybe not that many, but you know what I'm trying to say. But I, every single time I play it, I'm mesmerized..
Yumi Kendall:
Yes. It is amazing, as you might say.
Joseph Conyers:
It is amazing. It's fantastic. It is. That, Yumi, is our North Star.
Yumi Kendall:
Yes.
Joseph Conyers:
And maybe that summarizes this conversation. If we keep that as our North Star.
Yumi Kendall:
Yes.
Joseph Conyers:
We want everyone to be able to get to that North Star.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm-hmm.
Joseph Conyers:
That everyone has a pathway, both whether in our audience, whether in our orchestra and institutions.
Yumi Kendall:
Mmm-hmm.
Joseph Conyers:
And the communities, and how we can be to our community.
Yumi Kendall:
Yes.
Joseph Conyers:
Yumi, why can't we fight for that? I mean, that's what we're doing now. But why can't we collectively fight for that? I know it sounds so pollyannaish, because it does actually sound kind of pollyannaish. “Save the world, music, yay.” Whatever. But it it... I refuse, and I'm just gonna say it right here, I refuse to think otherwise. Because otherwise, I'm not going to give in.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
And I'll say, there are things that are happening in politics where it feels so easy to just give in.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
And just give up.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
But Yumi, if there's gonna be something written about me or on my tombstone, it's gonna say,
Yumi Kendall:
“He didn't give up.
Joseph Conyers:
“At least he tried.”
Yumi Kendall:
Or, “He persisted.”
Joseph Conyers:
That's right. Absolutely, yeah. “At least he tried.” And y'all, that's the best we can do. Because even in an overwhelming situation, the fact that we tried might be just enough in the long run to tip the scale.
Yumi Kendall:
Yes.
Joseph Conyers:
We may not see the scale ever tip, but in the long run.
Yumi Kendall:
Yeah.
Joseph Conyers:
That that that aids in some of this encouragement of getting folks to be active, to advocate, and to look for positive change.
Yumi Kendall:
Right.
Joseph Conyers:
So, that we can lean in to the thing that makes this art so beautiful.
Yumi Kendall:
And so for those who are maybe starting out in the industry or not in a position of being the the leaders of the change within their organization, if you're just starting out or if you're looking into your students or, I mean, maybe some of those ways are about learning about how institutions work or learning how successful industries or institutions work.
Joseph Conyers:
Yep.
Yumi Kendall:
Maybe not in classical music.
Joseph Conyers:
Perfect Yumi.
Yumi Kendall:
But like educating ourselves.
Joseph Conyers:
Absolutely.
Yumi Kendall:
Can be one of the most powerful ways to empower ourselves and prepare ourselves to become and to continue the work that when we, you're not gonna die, but if you, you know, like when your tomb's after Joe, we're clearing the path.
Joseph Conyers:
Yes.
Yumi Kendall:
So to become the next.
Joseph Conyers:
Yep.
Yumi Kendall:
To continue and be, to be torch bearers, educating ourselves in whatever way we can.
Joseph Conyers:
Yep.
Yumi Kendall:
Even from the League of American Orchestras to the AFM to reading the books out there and seeing who's out there and what are the values that are important in in passing on and or even just paving the way in case they don't happen to be there already if the ethics or the morals are not there? What do we need to do? What committees.
Joseph Conyers:
Yep.
Yumi Kendall:
Are there that or what people if they're not committees that you want to join necessarily what who are your allies to help make that change so we don't feel alone?
Joseph Conyers:
Yes.
Yumi Kendall:
And of course, you're not alone because you're listening to Tacet No More.
Joseph Conyers:
And there may not be articles written about it.
Yumi Kendall:
Yet. Because maybe you will someday, one of you listening.
Joseph Conyers:
You may not make the front page of the paper or the program book, but in your heart, you know you've done what you could to make that difference. And to me, that's the most important part.
Yumi Kendall:
It's interesting to think about being, if I were in shoes new in the industry now, it would be a combination of looking to the future.
Joseph Conyers:
Yep.
Yumi Kendall:
And looking back on what tools I have with me right now and they may be a smaller toolbox because of just being, seeing what's out there is like a rich field of wildflowers.
Joseph Conyers:
Yep.
Yumi Kendall:
Of everything going on and thinking about what we can do and the future.
Joseph Conyers:
Yeah.
Yumi Kendall:
It's quite a time, it's quite a time.
Joseph Conyers:
So, as you listen, you being our listeners, to the wonderful episodes of season two, we hope to spark some of that North Star ideology in your mind, but also equip you with the tools where you can actually start to make some change in your respective communities. Yeah. We're so excited about season two, and we're so excited about having you join us on this wonderful adventure.
Yumi Kendall:
We'd love to hear from you about your wishlist for topics for discussion within the industry on which we've thus far been tacet, and of course then would become Tacet No More. Please email us at info@tacetnomore.com or on Instagram.
Joseph Conyers:
And remember to share your one good thing using the hashtag #OneGoodThingTNM.
Yumi Kendall:
Tacet No More is produced by Joseph Conyers, Yumi Kendall, Andrew Meller, Lindsay Sheridan, and Brenda Hernández Jaimes of Ellas Media. Any views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and do not reflect any entities with which they are associated. In our next episode,
Shea Scruggs:
So in many ways, a lot of things that we do with Black Orchestral Network is to basically say, “Okay, when we say there's 1.8% of musicians in professional orchestras that are Black, is that because there are so few of us entering the field or is that because there are other barriers along the way getting into the orchestras and then barriers within the orchestras that keep us out and push us out?”
